Episode 13: Your Third Act Transcript
Transcript: Shana Siegel, Lisa Lisser
Shana Siegel: Welcome to Norris McLaughlin’s Aging Answers, a limited podcast series discussing the key topics of elder law planning and long-term care. I’m your host, Shanna Siegel, Practice Group Leader of the Elder Law Group and member at Norris McLaughlin. In this episode, I’m joined by Lisa Lisser, of LZL coaching. Hi, Lisa. How are you?
Lisa Lisser: I’m great. How are you, Shana?
Shana Siegel: Terrific. And so Lisa, tell us a little bit about your coaching practice.
Lisa Lisser: Sure. Shana, I’m a divorce coach. LZL coaching is a divorce and life transition coaching practice. And what I do is I help people move through the, the traumatic moments, right? When people are going through divorce, they Are stepping into the unknown, the unknown, and the space that they really never imagined they’d be because really, you go into life and you have a track and divorce is really not part of anyone’s plan. So, they’re filled with emotions. They’re filled with fear. They’re filled with the unknown, and they don’t know what to do. They’re frozen. And that’s where the divorce coach comes in. I help them walk through that. And I walk through every stage, every question that they have from should I, or shouldn’t I, to I can’t fill out these forms. Help me to how will I co-parent with this person that I can’t even look at or talk to, to who will I be? What will I do? After I’m no longer a spouse, you know these are really big questions and sometimes all you need is a guide on the side and that’s who I am in the process. So that’s what I do.
Shana Siegel: So, I know that you used to be an attorney and now you, and now you do this coaching work. So, I’m wondering how that transition came about for you? What made you change your, your whole life really.
Lisa Lisser: Yeah, and that’s a great question. And it’s really a journey. Sometimes life takes us roads we didn’t envision. And, you know, my life is sort of an example for my clients. So, I started life in this lawyer track, and it was a path that was set for me. For me, because I followed the steps that I thought I was supposed to take, but then I jumped off of that track when motherhood came my way, I had been in big firms, and it was just too much for me to try to do both. So, I stepped off that track. I got into Jewish non-profit work as a volunteer. I did lay leadership for 20 years and I was there on the front lines of fundraising and program development, and I did international work and program design, and it was really exciting work. It was unpaid work but it was work that was my passion and then I got divorced. And that was a shift that I didn’t expect. So, I had to reframe what it was I wanted to do. And at first, all I could think of was non-profit because that had been what I’d been doing for many, many years, but it wasn’t really the fit I thought I needed or that I expected, so I actually went back to school and I got a master’s in Jewish education and I followed that path for a while, and I actually realized I’ve been doing education for a long time. Every time I got up in front of a group, I was doing education as I was sharing stories and learning stories of people. And so that was part of my work. And then I did another shift as I started doing some spiritual counseling work in the field of addiction recovery, which again is a total pivot. It’s not teaching. It’s not your typical education, but it was a journey through a life space. And I thought maybe spiritual counseling could be something that could help people going through divorce. But I sort of stopped before I went forward in that because I didn’t know how I could sell it to lawyers, right? I didn’t know if I could say, look, spiritual counseling is something I know your clients need. I thought lawyers would look at me and say, roll their eyes and say, what are you talking about? Crystals and incense. Like that’s not a thing I can market to my clients, so I put it on a shelf. I continue to do the work I was doing, and then I heard about this thing called divorce coaching and I realized, hey, this might be a field that could weave together all of my passions, and all of my skill sets where I, my legal background would have a space. My life experience of going through divorce would have a space. My leadership would have a space in mentoring and the spiritual holding hearts space could work too. So that’s how I shifted from law, which seemed so far away to divorce coaching came and became the next thing. It was my passion project. And this is why I do what I do.
Shana Siegel: That’s an amazing journey. I’d actually never heard that whole story. So that’s interesting. So, when someone is thinking about going through a divorce, or they’re in the early stages of a divorce. What is it about their experience that would lead them to want to work with a divorce coach? When do they know that they could really use that help?
Lisa Lisser: So that’s probably the biggest question and the hardest obstacle people have to actually finding a divorce coach, because most people don’t know that there’s a thing called divorce coaching.
Shana Siegel: Right.
Lisa Lisser: And they know about lawyers, right? And maybe they’ve heard about mediators. So, when you’re facing this cliff that you feel you’re jumping off of, like, do I jump into this morass of divorce? Or do I stay? In this morass of marriage, like what’s harder staying or going? That’s actually the moment that you could use your divorce coach. That’s the moment that if you have a friend who’s going through it, that’s when you suggest maybe now is the time that you could talk to a professional. And it might not be a therapist. Now, yes, you might need a therapist to go through the emotional struggle you’re going through, but a divorce coach can help you walk through the tactical issues you need to deal with before you jump into the sea of divorce. So, at that stage, I can help you look at what are your financial issues? What is the child’s situation? What co-parenting issues might you deal with? Where are you going to live? What are your thoughts about the house and what’s holding you back? So those are the kinds of questions that I help people think about right in the beginning, because Those are the things that people are most afraid of, and they don’t even know how to articulate those fears to the lawyer because they think the lawyer is just going to handle them. And they think that the lawyer knows the answer, and maybe the lawyer even thinks that the lawyer knows the answer. But for each client, there are different questions. And so that’s what I help the clients with. Figuring out what are the questions that are right for them so that they can find the solutions that are particular to them, not that are typical for an average family going through this because no one’s an average family.
Shana Siegel: Sure. That makes sense. So, we’ve been talking about your work with people who are considering going through divorce, but this is a show about aging. So there are many, many, Older adults who are considering divorce. Gray divorce is a huge trend right now. So, I want to have you talk about that a little, but I also want to talk about some of the other work that you do, which is helping people who are facing transition, not just through divorce. And through loss of a spouse and other types of transitions, you and I have talked about this. We call it planning for the third act. So, tell me a little bit about your role in working with divorce and seniors in general. And then we can talk about how that is. Same kind of work can apply in other settings.
Lisa Lisser: Right. So, we are seeing a huge trend in what is being called gray divorce now. And it’s starting with people who are in their early to mid-50s. So, they’re not quite seniors yet, although they think they’re seniors because they might have gotten their AARP card in the mail.
Shana Siegel: And cursed it. Yeah, you and I both fit in that demographic and are cursing at getting it.
Lisa Lisser: Threw it in the garbage the first time I got it. No, no, no. But their kids are going off to college and they’re realizing that what they put up with for all these years may not be what they want to put up with for the rest of their lives. And yet they might not have planned for this. And so, what does it mean to plan for their next phase of life? Their 3rd act. And these are the kinds of questions because maybe they haven’t worked for the last 20 or 25 years. Maybe they haven’t been saving for that amount of time. And if they divorce, then they’re going to have half of what they may have saved for and what does that look like? And so, there are a lot of different concerns now that they have to think about. And if we go a decade later, if people are divorcing in their late fifties, early sixties. Now the work situation is even more challenging to enter, to enter a new field. And now you have to be more creative of what it is you want to do. What the income opportunities are. You have to get creative. It may mean starting a new profession. It may mean starting your own consulting business. It may mean taking risks that you’re not used to taking. And so, the coaching, helps my clients figure out what it is they love to do in the past that maybe they put aside. I asked them to remember who they were before their marriage and who they forgot they were, but who they can bring back up to the surface so they can Remember that person, maybe they don’t have certain of those skills anymore, but they do have those passions and they could be reapplied to different parts of their lives and layered with the skills they created during their 25 years of marriage. So that’s what I help them redesign. So that’s the beginning of the launch to the third act.
Shana Siegel: Yeah, that’s a lot of work they have to undertake.
Lisa Lisser: Yeah, but we make it fun. We make it fun. And what I’ve seen in clients is these aha moments of awareness. Where they didn’t give themselves credit for the amazing things they did when they were growing up because that was just what they had to do. I had one client whose parents moved around a lot. And she was in high school and she had to make new friends every place she went. And sometimes it was out of the country. Like she spent a lot of time going back and forth from the US to France. And she was fluent in French. And so, we talked about that and what it took to stand for herself in those moments. And she said to me, I never thought about how brave I must have been when I was that age. Now that she’s raised children who went through those ages and phases. And she’s seen how protective she was of them. She’s thinking about how independent she became because of her life circumstance. So, she’s taken those tools, honored her own life experience and layered it on herself 30 years later. To give herself the courage, she needs to do something totally brand new.
Shana Siegel: Sure. Well, it’s like I have a, someone I know who was a stay-at-home mom, and it’s like, you know, she’s thinking she doesn’t have skills, but she raised five children all within, born within ten years, you know? And it’s like, she managed that household. That’s a lot, that’s a lot of skill that takes.
Lisa Lisser: A-lot of skill. And so how do you take those skills and list them at in language that is not mommy language, right? Because we diminish the mommy language, the mommy work. So, if we want to make it business like, we just find different vocabulary and sometimes finding different vocabulary can be like a game, but it can be really empowering for my clients. And so that’s also part of it. When we find the empowering language. It gives my clients mindset shifts so that they remember and they are re-energized into new possibilities.
Shana Siegel: Another situation that I see people struggling with planning for their third act is when they’ve lost a spouse or when they have a spouse that’s entered long-term care and is you know, far along in their, in their process. And maybe they’ve been a caregiver for a number of years and now they have to shift to, you know, what’s next after that. That’s also an area that you would work with clients.
Lisa Lisser: Yeah, that, that is an area that I can be very gentle in because That’s where my spiritual counseling comes in. And I really honor the history that the person has shared with their partner. And the person is grieving to multiple things. They’re grieving the life they had before, but they also had this new life as a caretaker. And when that is gone, they don’t have the day-to-day routine that they had had. So now they don’t know what to do with themselves. So, we need to create new tools for them to find meaning in their day to day. And not to go down a hole. And that’s where we really talk about meaning and purpose. And we get very deep into what is my role now. And those are big, powerful conversations. And I get into that spirituality with them. And that can be powerful conversations, and it changes people.
Shana Siegel: So, I know that you also guide people towards some of the more practical things. So, we were on your show and we were talking about how you might guide them to someone like me to help with all of the practical things, whether it’s post-divorce or post-spouses death. Of course, there’s estate planning things that need to be addressed. There’s a lot of financial planning that You know, people really struggle with and you know, there’s so many places of thinking like, okay, now I’m a solo, I’m a solo senior. And what does that mean for me in terms of everything from the practical, what happens if I fall and who’s going to know to, you know, the larger issues of who’s going to help me. I’m going to make my health care decisions if I can’t. So that’s a lot of the work that I will do in this stage and sort of having people think about planning for their third act. So, I want to kind of let you speak a little bit more about your role in kind of in working in conjunction with that, the practical as well as the, you know, as the more big picture.
Lisa Lisser: Right. So, I’ve been talking primarily about the spiritual emotional role that I play in people’s lives, but I also get into the weeds. And like, if we’re talking divorce, I helped with strategy and I help with document production and I help with reading pleadings and things like that. And during the agreement and post-agreement phase, I help them think about what they need to plan for in their 3rd act. So, what’s most obvious is after the divorce is final, they need to change their estate plan. They need to do their own will. I mean, that’s the first thing everyone’s like, I got to change my will. That’s the first thing, but they also have to change trust documents and they change beneficiary designations on insurance policies. And they need to think about, and this is one thing that you shared on my podcast, you know, when it’s not urgent is the best time to plan for those things that might be urgent later. Like your long-term health care plan, like, who makes decisions when you can’t anymore, like, your living will is what, you know, my parents always have always been talking to me about. What’s your living will plan? Who’s going to be on that list? And, you know, you’ve got to rely on your sisters. That’s, that’s part of what they tell me. But when I talk to my clients, I ask them, who is it that you want to help you make these decisions when it’s going to be challenging for you? And that’s when I will direct them to someone like you, because you have the expertise and you also can help them. Ask the questions that I am not the expert at. So, I can only go so far. But you have the expertise to look at their whole picture, their whole estate plan, and say, look, these are the things that most people know about and these are the next level. So, let’s get you there because that will take care of you, especially now. And look, if you partner up again, this is still important. And then we can have another conversation.
Shana Siegel: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I wouldn’t have knew were talking about where you’re going to live. I think that that’s a piece where, you know, people are thinking about for today, but they’re not necessarily thinking about, okay, now, particularly an older individual, okay, now I’m divorced and I’m thinking about where I’m going to live. You really need to be thinking about long term care into that because now you don’t have a built in caregiver. Maybe you never did, but you know, you certainly don’t now. So, are you going to choose to be in an independent living facility in a 55 plus community? Or are you going to choose to be, you know, in some other setting and making sure, okay, if I want to have a live in, can I do that? Do I have, can I afford to have a second bedroom? You know, all of those things. People aren’t. You know, if they’re getting divorced and they’re 70, they may not really be having those thoughts, but it’s important, you know, because those things can creep up on us. So, I think that’s an, an important piece of, of the puzzle as well.
Lisa Lisser: Yeah, it definitely is. And when my clients are in that stage of life, We need to have those conversations and they need to have them even with their attorneys that are their matrimonial attorneys, which is why I like to have a team approach, right? Divorce is not something you go alone. Divorce is something you need to build a network. And that’s why I say very often. The divorce coach should be like your primary care physician because I have contacts with people like you who are not people’s first thought when they’re thinking about divorce, but are essential to making the right decisions when you’re planning your life after divorce and you are just one of a myriad of people who should be on the list of people you need for your life plan. And when people think of divorce if they’re only thinking, I need, you know, the shark lawyer, which is probably the last thing they need. That shark lawyer is going to eat up all of their money, just like a Pac-Man, you know, but that’s the last person they need. They need the coach to say, okay, let’s see. And then maybe it’s a mediator. Maybe you don’t think you can meditate, but you really can. Maybe it depends on the kind of mediator you get. And then there’s a host of different conversations. And like, there are certain real estate people that specialize in divorce. There are financial advisors that specialize in divorce. There are mortgage specialists that specialize in divorce. Like there is a whole field that’s like a safety net and you are part of that. So, if clients can say, okay, I need to pause. And that’s one of my biggest sources of advice to my clients. Before you send that email pause, because taking that breath will give you a second to think, do I need to send it or can I think about it first? And maybe I should edit and maybe I should edit my actions too. So, all of that is part of deciding who can be part of my team. And you know, that’s why we are here and building your network, right? Networking partners are really important.
Shana Siegel: No, absolutely. I mean, I was involved recently in a couple getting divorced and I was, you know, there were attorneys on both sides, but then they looked to me as the expert on long-term care issues and the financing of long-term care, because one of the people who was, uh, one of the partners had a diagnosis and we knew that ultimately would need long term care. So those things had to be incorporated into the agreement. So, a lot of teamwork. You know, one of the things that I often see is, you know, coming back to this solo senior piece, people want to stay at home, but they don’t necessarily think about what are the practical steps that are necessary in order to get that. And so. People don’t end up staying at home. People end up dying in facilities, which is exactly what they don’t want because they haven’t put an action plan in place. So, I love what, you know, you do is you really help people first. Think about what their desires are, and secondly, put that action plan in place so that they have much better chance of getting to where they want to be.
Lisa Lisser: Right, and one of the things that you mentioned when we had our podcast is that people don’t necessarily understand What needs to happen in order to get what they want. So, for instance, you had a client whose children kept them in their home until they ran out of money and then wanted to go into someplace else. But that someplace else wouldn’t take them if they had no money, so they didn’t do their due diligence to, and they didn’t speak to you first before they put into place their plan. So that’s a place where I might say, what makes you think that that’s how it works? Right? I had a client, Thea, just yesterday who is so afraid because of the election that she has a preexisting condition and when she gets divorced, she might not get any health care. And so my question was, well, what makes you think that that’s what’s going to happen? Because she has a fear, but it’s not based, you know, that this is one of the things we learned in a divorce coaching. Fear is false evidence appearing real. You don’t know that that’s true, but you just think it’s true. And so, in this case. The client didn’t tell you their plan. And if they had told you their plan, you could have said, no, no, no, that’s not the right way to go about this.
Shana Siegel: Right. And that’s where education and a team really comes into play.
Lisa Lisser: Yeah. 100%.
Shana Siegel: Great. Is there anything else that you want to share with our listeners before we close out?
Lisa Lisser: Well, I would love to say thank you to you for having me on this podcast. And if your listeners would like to reach me, they can find me on my website, which is LZLcoaching.com. I offer free 30-minute consults, and you can find the link to that right there on my website. And you could also find me on my podcast dishing on divorce with Lisa Lisser, or even email me lisa@LZL coaching.com.
Shana Siegel: Thanks so much.
Lisa Lisser: Thank you.
Shana Siegel: This has been Norris McLaughlin’s Aging Answers, a limited podcast series discussing the key topics revolving around elder law planning and long-term care. I want to thank my guests, Lisa Lisser and you, the listener, for being a part of the conversation. Be sure to tune in next time for a brand-new episode. If you’d like to learn more about our work, please email me at aginganswers@norris-law. com.